Thoughts on Judaism

Sunday, April 10, 2005

Igros Part II- the test

In Part I, we learn how Igros "works". The question is, though, does it work?

Igros could be easily tested by asking a direct question and then designating what would be a yes or no answer, and what would be considered an irrelevant answer. Thankfully this work was already done by believer, Ariel S. and the BostonChabad team. The following is lifted, unedited, from their site, dated October 19th, presumably of '04. Enjoy!

Beginning of quote:

Urgent update! October 19 : Dear readers! Looking at the current US presidential election campaigns I was saddened and perplexed by the almost total support given by my fellow Chabadniks and other Orthodox Jews to the incumbent president Bush Jr. when there are clear instructions of the Rebbe King Moshiach Shlit"a (May He live forever and ever!) not to reelect anyone who even said anything to split the holy land of Israel (think of Road Map). My dear readers Bush Jr. will lose like his father did for exacly the same reason which is ingratitude and lack of moral fortitude. His dad went into the Gulf War having advance scoop about the prophetic details of the upcoming war publiciced by the Rebbe King Moshiach Shlit"a (May He live forever and ever!) however once he won he decided that "my strenght and the power of my hands achieved all of this" and followed the evil council of James Baker to push Yitzhak Shamir to negotiate with acursed PLO in Madrid threatining not to give Israel the loan guarantees (which are worth millions to Israel and cost $0 to USA) . Bush Jr. also had advance knowlege of the King Moshiach's prophecy since mid summer 5762 (2002) (I'll post the story about that shortly) yet once G-d granted him the easy victory he rerbelled against the G-d who made him and haven't publicly repented to date therefore it's my pleasure to inform you in the Rebbe King Moshiach's name (This answer was was deduced thru common sense (or may be ruach ha'koidesh- Devine inspiration... see article on prophecy posted bellow ...) and then confirmed thru a letter to the Rebbe King Moshiach see for more on that, and thru a sign the G-d Almighty have sent me that few days ago: a guy named Kerry Presly -Kerry Press. ly - Kerry is my President ( Hebrew) tried to steal my back pack from the Yeshivah lobby at 824 Eastern Pkway Brooklyn were I was staying for the Sukot holydays at that time, the dude even pulled a knife on a Jew who tried to stop him but for some reason the DAs office declined to prosecute him ... I guess the angels clothed in bodies of the authorities decided that the poor guy should be let free since the whole thing was orchestrated from above for our benefit and noone was hurt anyway and I was able to cause a Jewish policeman to stand on the path of Teshuvah (repentance-Return to G-d) :-) that Sen. John Kerry is going to be the next US president and any support given to reelect the current president is a waste of time and money same way the protests about the then upcoming war with Iraq were a total waste of time and money.May G-d bless of my readers with common sense and or obidience to the will of the Rebbe King Moshiach Shlit"a who transmits us the will of the Almighty G-d . PS.If you are from among those who have trust in my honesty and trust in the Rebbe King Moshiach Shlit"a (May he live forever and ever!) you may even proffit from the above info by betting that Kerry will win at place like and you'll about double your money by the election date (this is 100% kosher according to Jewish law and the Rebbes answer also authorizes me to sugest this to people so I'll ignore angry comments from anyone on this topic . See prophecy being used for "commercial" purposes in Tanach ( the Bible) starting with Yosef haTzadik - Joseph the Righteous - Nabi Yusuf (Arabic spelling search engine bait) and all the way to Yeremia - Jeremia and more and people who chose to have trust in their holy words :-) PPS.The answer from Moshiach also stated that after both Bush and Sharon will not be reelected they will repent and do much G-d for the Rebbes causes (find word Sharon in Yishaiahu 65 -Issaiah 65 - you'll see what I mean in particular see classic comentarys on this.

Ad kan l'shono


  • B"H
    Shalom uBrocha!
    #1 This reply was achieved by asking Yes/No questions thru a goral in Tehilim I wrote Igrot on the post to make it shorter to explain and because I felt it was similar concept.
    #2 See the next update on the site Which explains what happened later and quotes actual reply.
    #3 As you see I didn't remove this story on Nov 3 after the results were in (some people sugested I do that but I got a reply that I should keep it)
    #4 In most cases in my expirience one sees revealed good as a result of a reply thru Igrot with no need for explanations not like in this case.
    A proposal: ask a question from the Rebbe King Moshiach Shlit"a thru Igrot if what I said above is a true account of what happened.
    brocha vehatzlocha
    Ariel Sokolovsky
    PS:The reply after elections that I shouldn't get depressed because of all that happened and it was all for my benifit came true I didn't have to pay any of the bets I was able to explain the situation to people I told about this prediction.This whole story made me much more popular and I was invited to speak in more places than before etc.I have no regrets.I didn't do anything wrong against halocha or the Rebbe King Moshiach's words in all this situation.
    PS:Why did you write ad kan leshono without quoting the end of my next post Dec 28 right above the Oct 19 post you quoted?
    PPS:There are at least two stories in the comentary on Tanach where someone got a reply from a prophet in one case in person (Yechezkiel told Chanania Mishael and Azaria that they will burn in the furnace) and in another case in a vision (Shaul by Shmuel) that didn't come true and in fact in both cases the prophets knew that what they are saying is not going to come true but Yechezkiel told them this so they have a kavona to give their lives away and not rely on a miracle and Midrash Raba says that Shmuel lied to Shaul in by the vision when he was "raised up" by the witch because it's "alma de'shikra" world of untruth...

    Long Live our Master our Teacher and our Rebbe King Moshiach Forever and Ever!

    By Blogger Rabbi Ariel Sokolovsky, at 4:32 AM  

  • Well, Ariel you won me some bets. I felt you would answer in one of 4 ways.
    1) ad hominem.
    2) You would remove the post, disavow it, and claim it never happened.

    Either of these would have been well out of character for you. (I bet heavily against these.)
    3) You would defer us to '08

    4) You would retreat to Rabbi X never said it (see my previous post on infallibility). This was my bet, and your selection. (Why then do you ask the Rebbe why he "set you up" if your posture is that yoou misunderstood.)

    My post was to show just what it did show. These "prophecies" are meaningless, of no use before the fact. The "truth" of them is also meaningless (again, my post on infallibility below). You asserted that the Rebbe told you that Kerry would win, that G-d wanted Kerry to win and that he sent you a sign to that affect, and that it was so certain that we could bet money on it. Oddly you bet less than $50 on this sure thing. I would think your mosad might have done better by mortgaging the homestead.

    Prophecy must be 100% accurate. Are you now saying that the Chabad Rebbe never told you this information (in other words your post was a highly misleading) or are you saying that the Chabad Rebbe is a false prophet? Are you a false prophet, since you got a sign from G-d for this?

    If you carefully read my post on infallibility, you will see that you followed it like a script in this case.

    "It's all for the good."
    "We do not understand why ..."
    "Not true according to its simple meaning"
    And when all of that breaks down:
    "The Rebbe never said it"

    Here is my proposal, to show that igros is true. Ask 20 questions that are definitive and agree on yes or no answers beforehand. These must be facts, like the election results, that can be shown definitively without retreat. They must be as close to 50-50 as possible (no aksing if the sun will rise tomorrow morning). I am betting that the igros will get between 7 and 13 right. Why? Because simple chance dictates that. As the number of questions goes higher, the success ratio should be closer to 50%. According to you, the success ratio will stay at 100%. Are you game? (Of course, the Rebbe will defy such an arrogant concept as testing his powers, and he will not play along, but you get my drift.)

    By Blogger Rebeljew, at 7:16 AM  

  • Ariel,

    If you felt that igros is effective, why did you ask this question in Tehillim, rather than just asking igros, if I may ask? Yehuda v'od likrah?

    By Blogger Rebeljew, at 4:54 PM  

  • B"H
    Shalom uBrocha!
    I had Tehilim in hand and no immidiate acces to Igros at that time,both are effective both are mentioned in Rebbes sicha.I ask the Rebbe or ask G-d how is secondary.

    By Blogger Rabbi Ariel Sokolovsky, at 6:58 PM  

  • Must have been Shabbos, thus no Inet access.

    By Blogger Rebeljew, at 7:37 AM  

  • By the grace of G-d
    Shalom uBrocha!
    I have paper volumes of Igros at home.
    It was not necesarily Shabbos maybe I was not home and only had Tehilim with me.
    Baal Shem Tov says Everything is by Divine Providence. If a leaf is turned over by a breeze, it is only because this has been specifically ordained by G-d to serve a particular function within the purpose of creation.
    How much more so when a Jew whose purpose of creation is to serve G-d asks G-d what to do to fulfill his purpose better the answer he recieves is not random but an act of Devine providence even if you have doubts about it.
    Brocha veHatzlocha!
    Chag Pesach Kosher veSame'ach!
    Ariel Sokolovsky

    Long Live our Master our Teacher and our Rebbe King Moshiach Forever and Ever!
    (it's only 4PM herein Portland where I'm now even if the blog clock bellow will show as if this was posted 3 hours later)

    By Blogger Rabbi Ariel Sokolovsky, at 7:00 PM  

  • with all due respect to Ariel, but I think that he is a bit of an extreme igros user. I am a beleiver in the igros. But not exactly in the way that you describe. There is no such thing as yes and no answers and tehre is no absolutes. I would not depend a life threatening situation on a wishy washy answer that did not neccesarily direct my specific question. But I can tell you countless times that I have put a letter to the Rebbe in the Igros, not a yes or no question, and opened it up to a letter that seemed to be almost adressed to me personally! I can give you specific examples ifyou wish... A coincidence? probobility? Perhaps, but I'm a beleiver in divine providence. Apparently G-d directed my hands to the right page that contained the holy advice of the Rebbe that would help me out when I needed it.

    By Blogger Esther, at 10:04 PM  

  • That is the nature of egocentrism, wandering.

    If I put the same horoscope in front of a large group of people, telling each that it was their own sign, most would find it a good match, noting what matched and dismissing what did not. There is no trick in this; it is simple psychology. To get a real take on whether your signs are real or perceived, you must go outside yourself.

    By Blogger Rebeljew, at 3:18 PM  

  • 1. We are only allowed to pray to Hashem.

    If people want to pray to anyone else, and make requests of any being other than Hakadosh Baruch Hu, they might as well join Xtianity.

    2. When Moshe prayed, he prayed to Hashem. He did not pray to any Malachim or any celestial beings. These are all the creations of Hashem.

    (Similarly, the Neilah prayer for Yom Kippur in the Ashkenazi tradition, includes direct Tefillot and requests to Malachim. They are creations of Hashem. We are not allowed to pray to any Malachim. This is completely assur and causes very great damage. The Neilah Tefillah for Yom Kippur should be amended speedily to remove all prayers and requests to Malachim.)

    • There should be NO MEDIATOR between a person’s tefillot and Hashem.

    If a person chooses to use intercession instead of praying directly to Hashem, this is completely Assur.

    If the leaders of Chabad encouraged people to use the “Igrot” - including Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson, tz”l - they were wrong. Using the Igrot is using intercession. It is assur and forbidden.

    People who are using the Igrot are using intercession, which is Assur. They should stop doing this straight away. Teshuvah to Hashem should be done speedily instead.

    3. Why not choose the very greatest of all prophets, Moshe Rabbeinu?

    Why don’t you look inside the Torah - instead of letters written to other people by Rabbi Schneerson tz”l during his lifetime?

    Moshe is the greatest of all prophets, and no other prophet was equal to him.

    “Zichru Torat Moshe Avdi” we are told in Malachi (3:22)

    There simply is no comparison between Moshe Rabbeinu and Rabbi Schneerson tz”l, although Rabbi Schneerson tz”l was a Tzaddik and a very righteous and good man.

    4. Moshe Rabbeinu was the greatest of all prophets, and we do not even pray in the name of
    Moshe. Neither do we pray in the name of David Hamelech, whose descendent is the Mashiach.

    However, in the very first Beracha of the Amidah, the silent prayer to Hashem containing our requests, we recall the merit of the Avot: “…..Elokei Avraham, Elokei Yitzhak Velokei Yaakov….” “….The G-d of Avraham, the G-d of Yitzhak and the G-d of Yaakov…”

    The beracha is concluded with “Magen Avraham.”

    In summary:

    (1) We pray to Hashem – at all times.

    (2) There should be no mediator between Hashem and a person’s tefillot – otherwise this is Assur.

    Therefore the practice of using the “Igrot” for requests and guidance should be stopped. The reason for this is that this is using intercession. And the use of a “mediator” or someone to “intercede on a person’s behalf” to Hashem, is assur.

    Teshuvah must be done.

    (3) Why not choose the greatest of all prophets – Moshe Rabbeinu – and look inside the Torah?

    By Anonymous Deborah Shaya, at 8:34 PM  

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