Do Jews believe in Jesus?
Publicly, I do not shy away from asserting that, according to the facts before us, and according to the traditional narratives before us, it is highly unlikely that Jesus, the main character of the New Testament, actually existed as a single historical character. In all likelihood, the stories about Jesus, rose up as did Ba'al Shem Tov stories (l'havdeil ad elef havdalos, ptui ptui, there are you satisfied?), as moderate stories about someone which were pumped up into amazing stories and put under one human umbrella. Oddly enough, Chabadniks are the most offended and insistent that Jesus did, in fact exist. The Gemorra, Medrash and Rambam assert that he existed and who am I to say otherwise? This is used as further proof of my spiritual descent into the abyss, that I do not believe in Jesus. It gets weirder. There is another "traditional" source, albeit very recent, called Sefer HaVikuchim which compiles even more stories about Jesus, based on later disputations. These sages, over the centuries, assumed that Jesus existed, and since they must magically know everything that ever happened from ruach hakodesh, it must be the irrefutable truth.
1) Did the Rambam assert that Jesus exists?
The one comment in Rambam that is quoted is the censored comment in Law of Kings and their Wars 11:10, preserved in the Karpach version (which was preserved in the Arab world, saving it from Christian censors). אף ישוע הנוצרי שדימה שיהיה משיח, ונהרג בבית דין--כבר נתנבא בו דנייאל, שנאמר "ובני פריצי עמך, יינשאו להעמיד חזון--ונכשלו" (דנייאל יא,יד). וכי יש מכשול גדול מזה: שכל הנביאים דיברו שהמשיח גואל ישראל ומושיעם, ומקבץ נדחיהם ומחזק מצוותן; וזה גרם לאבד ישראל בחרב, ולפזר שאריתם ולהשפילם, ולהחליף התורה, ולהטעות רוב העולם לעבוד אלוה מבלעדי ה'.
The first words are, "Even Jesus the Notzri , who seemed that he would be the Messiah, and was killed by a (presumably Jewish) court, was already prophesied by Daniel 11:14, as it says "offshoots of your people will rise up to support a vision, and they will stumble ..."
I am not compelled that the Rambam is saying that Jesus existed. In my humble opinion (as if!), he is saying that the character Jesus (real or invented) was held out to be the Messiah and, according to the story, was killed in a Jewish court, thus disproving their contentions. And Daniel prophesied that offshoots of the Jewish nation (i.e. Christians) would try to support him, but that they would stumble. I think he can still escape with his honor of Jesus did not exist. He is just trying to use common tradition of Jesus to prove that the Messiah does not need to do miracles, and that they are not impressive to certify a candidate.
According to the NT, Jesus was convicted in a Jewish court to death (what for is not clear), and turned over to the Romans for execution, which they did reluctantly on the insistence of the Jews. The Rambam says he was "killed by a Beit Din". According to some Jewish apocryphal sorces, Jesus was actually killed by the Beit Din. Rambam may have relied on these sources or may have been speaking imprecisely about the NT version. (Might he have read the NT? Oh my!) Either way, he feels the case that he was convicted by a Beit Din makes a much stronger statement against his Messianic claims, so he has a good reason to say it. Bottom line - no evidence that Rambam insists that Jesus actually exists.
2) Gemorra sources
I would look for the Gemorra to mention a historical character, between 10 BCE and 50 CE to have done something of lasting historical value, positive or negative, as an official "claim" that Jesus existed.
The Gemorra in Gittin 58 (learned on Tisha B'Av) mentions that three people were punished in heaven, Titus, Bilaam, and "sinners of Israel". Some hold that "sinners of Israel" was inserted by censors in place of You-kno'-'oo. However it is clear from the text that the Gemorra is giving a fanciful allegory about deserved punishment, not a historical narrative. It does not say what they or "he" did to deserve being boiled eternally in excrement.
The Gemorrah in Sanhedrin, perek haChelek (108 toward the bottom if I recall) relates a story of Yeshu HaNotzri (transliterated as Jesus) accompanying Rabbi Yehoshua ben Parachya to an inn. In the story, RYbP complements the inn, and Jesus thinks he means the innkeeper's wife, due to the similarity of the words. RYbP excommunicates him for occupying himself in such thoughts, both a false suspicion and revealing what is going on in the student's own thoughts, a huge Pharisee no-no. After shunning Jesus harshly several times, RYbP decides to forgive him, but Jesus approaches during prayer, and he mistakes RYbP's ignoring him for a final negative answer. Then, he goes to a public place in the Temple and worships an idol, as a sign that he will never be forgiven. RYbP exhorts him to repent, but he points out that RYbP himself has taught that there is no forgiveness. From this the Gemorra learns that one should not push away a student harshly.
Bottom line - This story would have taken place at least a century and a half too early to be the NT character. Even so, the Gemorra blames RYbP for the incident. I have often wondered if this Gemorra is not the source for the name, later attached to the legend. Rashi explains that Yeshu stands for "Yamach Shmo v'Zichro", may his name and mention be erased. Clearly the name is significant. HaNotzri means "the guardian" of the Torah. So, even though he was Tamudic scholar, and a Notri, he was nonetheless Yeshu, as his ego won out over his humility.
However, it cannot be a real 30 year old living in 30 CE or anything close if he was a student of RYbP. The fact that the Gemora does not blame him implies to me that it not equate with the NT character either.
There is one other famous mention in Sanhedrin (in the 40s, I think) which mentions that Yeshu HaNotzri had 5 students condemned in Beit Din. The names are not recognizable, except perhaps, Todah (Thadeus?). Each defendant quotes a verse with their name or something close implying that they should be saved, and the court quotes a verse with the name of each implying that they deserve death.
Bottom line - Whatever the underlying encoded message, it is clear that the Beit Din did not decide capital cases in this way. We do not hear of their real crimes. This story is cannot be literal. It is apocryphal.
3) Medrash - There are no contemporary medrashim that mention Jesus, that I am aware of. There are later ones, even a pamphlet called "Toldot Yeshu HaNotzri", likely dating to the late Middle Ages.
There is an interesting Notrikin in the Chumash, on the pasuk in parshat Va'Yechi (Gen 49:10).
לא-יסור שבט מיהודה, ומחקק מבין רגליו, עד כי-יבא שילה, ולו יקהת עמים
The roshei taivot spell out "lo yesh mum ra' k'yeshu", there is no evil blemish like Jesus.
Even if this is an authentic hint in a prescient Chumash, it can easily refer to the legendary Jesus rather than a particular man. Cool though, no?
4) History
Plenty of ink has spilled on the fact that there are no contemporary historical references to Jesus in Roman or Jewish sources. Josephus, especially, seems to have missed this very important revolution. In fact, there is one paragraph in Josephus that mentions matter of factly, that there was this guy Jesus and that the Jews condemned him and the R0mans killed him and that he was the Messiah. Then he continues the narrative of the story that he was telling in the previous paragraph. So other than this one paragraph, off the cuff, allusion to the greatest event in Jewish history, that every Jew has been awaiting since time immemorial, there seems to be nothing.
Bottom line - Even the Vatican no longer supports the authenticity of the Josephus reference.
So in summary, we really have no compelling case that Jesus was a historical figure. The concept that his name was Yeshua (Joshua) because he "saved the people from their sins" (Hebrew root yud, shin, ayin) does not mesh with the common transliteration IESVS, IE (yud), S (shin), V(vav), S (ending silent S in Roman). The name of Joshua the earlier biblical character is transliterated IESUAS, with the A standing for the voweled Ayin. In Toldot Yeshu, there is a reference to a student of the Rabbis that follows the Christians in order to remove the Jews from the movement. In the NT, Paul hears new prophecies from Jesus and encourages the movement away from Jewish practice, while insisting that Jews maintain the practice. Could he have used the earlier known tradition of Yeshu HaNotzri the idolator to create a code to drive the Jews apart from the non-Jews in the movement. The Jews might have recognized the reference and left the movement whereas the non-Jews would not. The movement then solidified all of its traditional characters under the name that Paul gave them. A grain of truth? Someone more ambitious than I can get a doctoral thesis out of that. But, at any rate, it must be clear that there is no evidence here to compel one to claim that Jewish sources insist that Jesus was a real person corresponding with the character of that name in the New Testament.
1) Did the Rambam assert that Jesus exists?
The one comment in Rambam that is quoted is the censored comment in Law of Kings and their Wars 11:10, preserved in the Karpach version (which was preserved in the Arab world, saving it from Christian censors). אף ישוע הנוצרי שדימה שיהיה משיח, ונהרג בבית דין--כבר נתנבא בו דנייאל, שנאמר "ובני פריצי עמך, יינשאו להעמיד חזון--ונכשלו" (דנייאל יא,יד). וכי יש מכשול גדול מזה: שכל הנביאים דיברו שהמשיח גואל ישראל ומושיעם, ומקבץ נדחיהם ומחזק מצוותן; וזה גרם לאבד ישראל בחרב, ולפזר שאריתם ולהשפילם, ולהחליף התורה, ולהטעות רוב העולם לעבוד אלוה מבלעדי ה'.
The first words are, "Even Jesus the Notzri , who seemed that he would be the Messiah, and was killed by a (presumably Jewish) court, was already prophesied by Daniel 11:14, as it says "offshoots of your people will rise up to support a vision, and they will stumble ..."
I am not compelled that the Rambam is saying that Jesus existed. In my humble opinion (as if!), he is saying that the character Jesus (real or invented) was held out to be the Messiah and, according to the story, was killed in a Jewish court, thus disproving their contentions. And Daniel prophesied that offshoots of the Jewish nation (i.e. Christians) would try to support him, but that they would stumble. I think he can still escape with his honor of Jesus did not exist. He is just trying to use common tradition of Jesus to prove that the Messiah does not need to do miracles, and that they are not impressive to certify a candidate.
According to the NT, Jesus was convicted in a Jewish court to death (what for is not clear), and turned over to the Romans for execution, which they did reluctantly on the insistence of the Jews. The Rambam says he was "killed by a Beit Din". According to some Jewish apocryphal sorces, Jesus was actually killed by the Beit Din. Rambam may have relied on these sources or may have been speaking imprecisely about the NT version. (Might he have read the NT? Oh my!) Either way, he feels the case that he was convicted by a Beit Din makes a much stronger statement against his Messianic claims, so he has a good reason to say it. Bottom line - no evidence that Rambam insists that Jesus actually exists.
2) Gemorra sources
I would look for the Gemorra to mention a historical character, between 10 BCE and 50 CE to have done something of lasting historical value, positive or negative, as an official "claim" that Jesus existed.
The Gemorra in Gittin 58 (learned on Tisha B'Av) mentions that three people were punished in heaven, Titus, Bilaam, and "sinners of Israel". Some hold that "sinners of Israel" was inserted by censors in place of You-kno'-'oo. However it is clear from the text that the Gemorra is giving a fanciful allegory about deserved punishment, not a historical narrative. It does not say what they or "he" did to deserve being boiled eternally in excrement.
The Gemorrah in Sanhedrin, perek haChelek (108 toward the bottom if I recall) relates a story of Yeshu HaNotzri (transliterated as Jesus) accompanying Rabbi Yehoshua ben Parachya to an inn. In the story, RYbP complements the inn, and Jesus thinks he means the innkeeper's wife, due to the similarity of the words. RYbP excommunicates him for occupying himself in such thoughts, both a false suspicion and revealing what is going on in the student's own thoughts, a huge Pharisee no-no. After shunning Jesus harshly several times, RYbP decides to forgive him, but Jesus approaches during prayer, and he mistakes RYbP's ignoring him for a final negative answer. Then, he goes to a public place in the Temple and worships an idol, as a sign that he will never be forgiven. RYbP exhorts him to repent, but he points out that RYbP himself has taught that there is no forgiveness. From this the Gemorra learns that one should not push away a student harshly.
Bottom line - This story would have taken place at least a century and a half too early to be the NT character. Even so, the Gemorra blames RYbP for the incident. I have often wondered if this Gemorra is not the source for the name, later attached to the legend. Rashi explains that Yeshu stands for "Yamach Shmo v'Zichro", may his name and mention be erased. Clearly the name is significant. HaNotzri means "the guardian" of the Torah. So, even though he was Tamudic scholar, and a Notri, he was nonetheless Yeshu, as his ego won out over his humility.
However, it cannot be a real 30 year old living in 30 CE or anything close if he was a student of RYbP. The fact that the Gemora does not blame him implies to me that it not equate with the NT character either.
There is one other famous mention in Sanhedrin (in the 40s, I think) which mentions that Yeshu HaNotzri had 5 students condemned in Beit Din. The names are not recognizable, except perhaps, Todah (Thadeus?). Each defendant quotes a verse with their name or something close implying that they should be saved, and the court quotes a verse with the name of each implying that they deserve death.
Bottom line - Whatever the underlying encoded message, it is clear that the Beit Din did not decide capital cases in this way. We do not hear of their real crimes. This story is cannot be literal. It is apocryphal.
3) Medrash - There are no contemporary medrashim that mention Jesus, that I am aware of. There are later ones, even a pamphlet called "Toldot Yeshu HaNotzri", likely dating to the late Middle Ages.
There is an interesting Notrikin in the Chumash, on the pasuk in parshat Va'Yechi (Gen 49:10).
לא-יסור שבט מיהודה, ומחקק מבין רגליו, עד כי-יבא שילה, ולו יקהת עמים
The roshei taivot spell out "lo yesh mum ra' k'yeshu", there is no evil blemish like Jesus.
Even if this is an authentic hint in a prescient Chumash, it can easily refer to the legendary Jesus rather than a particular man. Cool though, no?
4) History
Plenty of ink has spilled on the fact that there are no contemporary historical references to Jesus in Roman or Jewish sources. Josephus, especially, seems to have missed this very important revolution. In fact, there is one paragraph in Josephus that mentions matter of factly, that there was this guy Jesus and that the Jews condemned him and the R0mans killed him and that he was the Messiah. Then he continues the narrative of the story that he was telling in the previous paragraph. So other than this one paragraph, off the cuff, allusion to the greatest event in Jewish history, that every Jew has been awaiting since time immemorial, there seems to be nothing.
Bottom line - Even the Vatican no longer supports the authenticity of the Josephus reference.
So in summary, we really have no compelling case that Jesus was a historical figure. The concept that his name was Yeshua (Joshua) because he "saved the people from their sins" (Hebrew root yud, shin, ayin) does not mesh with the common transliteration IESVS, IE (yud), S (shin), V(vav), S (ending silent S in Roman). The name of Joshua the earlier biblical character is transliterated IESUAS, with the A standing for the voweled Ayin. In Toldot Yeshu, there is a reference to a student of the Rabbis that follows the Christians in order to remove the Jews from the movement. In the NT, Paul hears new prophecies from Jesus and encourages the movement away from Jewish practice, while insisting that Jews maintain the practice. Could he have used the earlier known tradition of Yeshu HaNotzri the idolator to create a code to drive the Jews apart from the non-Jews in the movement. The Jews might have recognized the reference and left the movement whereas the non-Jews would not. The movement then solidified all of its traditional characters under the name that Paul gave them. A grain of truth? Someone more ambitious than I can get a doctoral thesis out of that. But, at any rate, it must be clear that there is no evidence here to compel one to claim that Jewish sources insist that Jesus was a real person corresponding with the character of that name in the New Testament.
posted by Rebeljew at
7:56 AM
5 Comments:
There is alot of evidence for a historical person called Y’hoshua - a Pharisaic Ribi whom lived in the first century. There is also evidence that Christians changed his name to “Jesus” and that they heavily redacted his teachings into “the gospel of Matthew”.
The evidence can be found in the website of www.netzarim.co.il ; History Museum (left menu). Also the Talpiot Tomb proved the existence of Y’hoshua -- despite that some not qualified wanna be-”scholars” refute the evidence based on invalid arguments. More information in the above website; History Museum; Mashiakh-section (top menu); Talpiot Tomb.
By
Unknown, at 4:08 AM
The Talpiot tomb that is so vigorously promoted by Simon Jacobovici has not been accepted in archeo circles as legitimate. At any rate, just because some common names match an account with the same common names is no proof of anything. And the fact that the remains are in ossuaries really calls into question the whole "he is not here, he is risen" account.
Also, according to the NT, the tomb was not his. It belonged to a man named Joseph of Arimethea.
Trotting out pop culture from a crackpot that does not pass any scientific muster does not qualify as evidence. If anything, the Talpiot tomb, were it coincidentally the tomb of the person or one of the people on whom the character in the NT is based, would only prove my point further. The NT character is not a real person. He is fictional.
By
rebeljew, at 1:29 PM
Yes, the "gospels" contain a multitude of words and event that the historical person Y'hoshua never taught.
They describe "Jesus" - a non-historical entity. However, there was an historical person -- see the evidence that I referred to in the last post.
The arguments presented against the Talpiot Tomb doesn't stand scrutiny - which is demonstrated in the link I provided you.
According to statistics -- probability of the tomb not being that of Ribi Y'hosua:
"To date, statisticians have not taken into account that spectral analysis placed the Ya·aqov ossuary in the Talpiot Tomb. Thus, the Ya·aqov ossuary coupled with a larger pool of name permutations fixes the probability closer to 1/80,000 x 1,192,052,400 = 1/95.3 trillion— 1:95,364,192,000,000— and that’s without taking into account the specificity (Ya·aqov + “son of Yoseiph” + “brother of Yeshua”) of the entire inscription being recently authenticated after earlier being decried—wrongly and hysterically–as a fake. This would raise the probability far higher. "
Read more here
By
Unknown, at 8:53 PM
The statistical analysis is a smoke screen. So are the ossuaries, whose veracity was so thoroughly criticized.
The fact remains that there is no contemporary evidence of people that match the NT in anything more than a very general way. There were lots of faith healers. There were lots of gnostics. There is no eidence of the major points in the NT. There is probably no city of Nazareth in that time. There is no evidence from Josephus, the period's number one live blogger. There is no evidence from the Talmud, Midrash or contemporary histories. There is no evidence of the movement making any headway in Israel. No evidence of a popular revolt against the Rabbis. No evidence of popular prophets named John or Jesus. There is no evidence of a Saducee court passing a death sentence against a popular preacher (and clearly the accounts in the NT point to a Saducee court). No evidence that Pilate was disposed to let prisoners go to appease the people nor any evidence of this custom.
Simply put, there are alot of things that could be verified by contemporary history, but there is no corroboration. The old joke is that the Odyssey was not written by Homer but a another poet named Homer. Jesus of the NT is a fictional character. Even if you were to prove that there were people named Mary Magdelene, James the brother of Jesus, etc. etc., you are making no headway in saying anything other than that the fictional Jesus was based on some contemporary character, a "Baal Shem Tov, of sorts.
In Inherit the Wind, Col. Brody is based on William J Bryant. But Brody is still fictional and is not Bryant.
By
rebeljew, at 11:00 PM
There is no new testament. Those writings are older than the ram am. He existed alright but he was kidnapped and carried off into gentile cultures. Like Yosef, we can,t see him.....yet.
By
Anonymous, at 12:11 AM
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